I read this article and I checked numbers as per www.woboe.org (The West Orange Board of Educations -web site) against what was quoted by Ms. Cumming in this story: The gross spending on the school budget for fiscal 2011-2012 is $132,498,573.00 for fiscal 2010-2011 it was $135,592,158.00 and for fiscal 2009-2010 its was $134,437,770.00: I don't see a $9,000.000.00 cut. Also, at $324,000.00 from fiscal year 2011-2012 for charters that would mean less than 1/4 of percent of the school budget going to charters. I don't see that as unsustainable funding. Furthermore no cost saving are noted for not having to educate charter school students in district in the anti-charter accounting method. Thus, the economic argument against charters just does not add up. I just have to conclude that some people just like a government monopoly on education and just don't want parents to have choices and options.

By politicizing children against broader educational opportunities, parents actually harm their children by limiting their exposure and thereby potential. Seeing children as pawns is nauseating - it hurts the heart.

Please take your getting-public-funds-for-your-private-school scam somewhere else. Thanks.

@ jutta Gassner-Snyder: If by "politicizing children" you are referring to the handful of very young kids that came in tow with their parents attending the rally, I can assure you they had no more deep awareness or involvement in the process than will those (grades K-2?) you hope to recruit as students in your inaugural term.

Far more "nauseating and hurt(ful to) the heart for me," is the idea of prying such cherubs away from the nurturing environment and community of decent neighborhood schools for immersion schooling in a language that may be of little value to any or all of them.

Adam, while I believe you are sincere in your thoughts, I am not incorrect about the loss of state funding. The district lost that amount two years ago when the budget did not pass (something you voted against, so I'm sure you recall, when you were running for the West Orange Board of Education), and then the town council cut the budget an additional 2.5 million. Thanks to Dr. Cavanna, our Superintendent, he encouraged grant applications which bolstered the budget, so that is what your numbers reflect. Regardless, I would like to ask this question: if suburban charter schools (a debatable interpretation of the current law, which is why it must be changed), are to be funded by public school dollars, then they should be held accountable to the same mandates that the public schools are... they should have a school population reflective of the district funding them, including ESL, Spec Ed, Economically disadvantaged, and more.

The Hua Mei charter school does not target the diverse community of West Orange, in any way, shape or form.

Schools were founded in this country to help assimilate a diverse group of individuals, much like the people that live in West Orange. America still needs strong public schools now more than ever. America has a core of history and values that are worth passing on to the next generation. Rather than to fragment this wonderful tradition in the United States by encouraging kids to "not learn" English but rather immerse themselves in the language of a corrupt communist regime that is oppressive in their government and creates a climate that many would leave for this country is deeply offensive to me.

I've amended the story to read that Ms. Cumming said the West Orange district had lost $9 million in state funding over a two-year period — as opposed to saying that the overall budget had been reduced by that number. Ms. Cumming, I believe, has made that clarification in her comments here.

As is already done with Spanish, French, Italian or any other foreign language, teachers can be hired to teach Mandarin Chinese in our public schools, as is already being done in other NJ townships, without the need for a boutique charter school.

This school will result in out flows of cash equal to less then one quarter of one percent of the total school budget. There will be at least some offset on this in that less students will need to be educated in district. Thus the economic argument against this school does not add up. New cultural and educational options will be good for the community. As the charter school movement grows in this area we can have real savings by not having the build more classrooms or hire more teachers as the charter schools will take student out of a crowded district. Over time charter schools will thru healthy competition force our schools to do the good thing they do even better and improve in the areas they need to improve on. In stead of fighting charters at start up we should use them as a positive opportunity and a creative force in education.

Adam, while the initial expense does not seem much to you, it represents an 'initial' expense, with more to come. Once other charter schools start 'popping up', and if they're approved by an Acting, not even permanent, commissioner, without the town's voice in the matter... well, the math on that will escalate into something very significant. And btw, 324K IS a lot of money for the district to lose.

I just did a cursory look at the petitions for and against the Hua Mei School. Their petition in support has 69 signatures, many from founders, spouses of founders and people outside of the geographic area from which the school would draw. The petitions against have 1042 and 612 each. While many of these may be the same people signing both petitions, I think the numbers speak for themselves. So I wonder who, outside of the founders and few others, actually WANT this school? One person showed up at the "pro Hua Mei" part of the rally yesterday. When Hua Mei held an information session over the summer, 7 people showed up. It's hard to believe that they will get enough critical mass to open their doors. I'm not suggesting that we leave anything to chance here, and clearly we need the proposed legislative reform. But I am surprised that the founders want to try so hard to open a school in an area that seems unreceptive at best.

I have to agree with the people who say we cannot afford to lose funding at this critical time . Four hundred thousand dollars or even four thousand is too much . West Orange Schools are operating on " a bare -bones " budget . Come on , we're barely scraping by .Dr. Cavanna said the loss of three or four hundred thousand dollars would have a deleterious impact on programs the school district offers , and perhaps other areas as well. That's sad , because we had money .Homeowners in West Orange pay A LOT of money to adequately fund the schools . But when the Superintendent makes $225,000 and when an Assistant Superintendent with 10 years service makes $200.000 ,and when the Business Administrator makes $200.000 and when a new supervisor receives a ten month work schedule and a starting salary of $113,500,money can certainly become an issue . Clearly it becomes more of an issue when there are NINE steps to the top of the Educrats very generous pay scale , a benefits package second to none , very generous longevity pay , excellent pension and retirement benefits , and countless very generous coaching and coordinating stipends . Now consider the fact that perhaps twenty per cent of the "teachers " in the district never see the inside of a classroom and many hard working employees do what teachers , quite appropriately , used to do , and you come to an inescapable conclusion : The people who say we can't afford to lose funding are correct . The district has no money .

"Rock Hardshaft"... maybe it's just another one of Woho's names. Certainly the substance of his posts is the same, which is negative, punitive, and belligerent.

Folks, Let's focus on the issues and stop attacking each other. And, yes, we encourage posters to use their real names — it's in your best interest if you want your comments to be taken seriously.
Also, without voicing an opinion on this topic, I would say that my mother involved all her children in civic discussion from an early age. She took us to demonstrations on various topics. As a child, you will of course follow your parents lead, but I can assure you that the experience does not preclude that child from growing into an adult who can make her own judgments. It certainly helped all my mother's children to be engaged in civic life.

In accordance with what Cynthia mentioned above that West Orange already has a model ESL state program; an award winning Mandarin language program funded in part by the Chinese government for grades 8-12 and in furtherance of my comment above concerning the hiring of teachers to teach Mandarin Chinese in our public schools, I cannot understand the need for a boutique Chinese immersion charter school at this time.

Mary Mann, I still say that to use one's real name in a forum of this nature that elicits the kind of passion and vitriol we see here is to invite personal retribution by those who may not share your view. AOL has an interesting concept here at the Patch. Local news, local discussion, etc. But it is only as good as the ideas that flow here.

I have suspended five users from this thread. The rules are simple: stick to the issues. No personal attacks. Sometimes that line is fuzzy and I've been trying to give people a little wiggle room, but I will suspend a user if that user is warned and then continues to attack others. I know this is a heated subject — what could be more important than education? — but I appreciate all of you who have kept to issues. Let's have a conversation that we can be proud of. We can disagree without being disagreeable.

There's still time to voice your concern to Acting Commissioner Cerf if you have not already done so. He is expected to make a decision over the next week or so.

Chris Cerf
Acting Commissioner
New Jersey Department of Education

100 River View Plaza
P.O. Box 500
Trenton, NJ 08625
Telephone (609) 292-4450
Fax (609) 777-4099

And Cerf's e-mail is:

commissioner@doe.state.nj.us

If you phone, (609) 292-4450, PRESS 3 for the Charter School Office

We need and appreciate ALL the support we can in this last couple of weeks leading up to Cerf's final decision--thanks so much!

I agree with Mary and the Patch's research. If people use their real names when posting, it adds more credibility and civility to the discussion.

Since we need more existing charter school families in this discussion, I'll volunteer.
NJ charter schools receive little to no money from the state or district for their facilities. Meanwhile, transporting parents (myself included) receive a reimbursement for gas/driving expense that might only cover half their total costs. A charter school family seeks a teaching/learning model that better suits their child. They may desire more personal involvement in a school's daily operation (--our charter, Unity Charter School, offers a far greater opportunity for daily parental involvement, even in the cafeteria--). Charters understand that their community includes parents, and many utilize the cultural, professional and artistic skills of parents to create a rich environment. Our school offers a social/emotional/nutritional approach that speaks to the newest research on executive functioning and how it can support lifelong learning. Charters also often have lower student-to-teacher ratios. All this on less overall per-student funding than traditional districts. Just because most suburban families bought happily into their school district, please remember that some families seek a choice and would prefer that their options not to proactively squashed by taxpayers. Lets not allow our frustration with school funding (and fear) to squelch innovation. Our daughters to love going to school each day, and I'd like each child to share that joy.

Where is the Unity Charter school located, and what does your town pay for your child to go there?

It's quite simple. I do not want to pay for your child's boutique education nor would I ask you to pay for one for my child. If it is that important to you, there are after-school programs and private schools. It is your choice, but do not ask me to pay.

@Rite of Center - Let's save the nastiness and stick with the program!

Jutta: Hua Mei is nothing more than you selfishly asking me to pay for your child's Chinese language program. Note that I choose not to do so.

Why don't you and your friends hire after-school tutors?

Additionally, in reviewing the Hua Mei website,where are the resumes of the founders and proposed staff, and where is a copy of the application filed with Mr. Cerf?

Hi Jutta,

Thanks for getting back on the Patch boards. I really appreciate you taking the time to post here. I've asked you this in previous threads and you have still not answered me. So I ask again: Why have both of Hua Mei's applications to the state NEVER included an Abbott district?

Your second application to the BOE once again appears to discriminate based on race and socio-economic status. The towns it proposes to serve this time around (Maplewood, South Orange and West Orange) are contiguous to Irvington, Orange, East Orange and Newark. All of these urban districts are specifically encouraged to establish charter schools under the statute. N.J.S.A. 18A:36A-3(b). All are District Factor Group A, urban, Abbott districts with high incidents of poverty and a large proportion of minority students.

However, your second application does not include these high-poverty districts that are for some students, within two miles, or walking distance, from Hua Mei's proposed location at the old St. Joe's school.

Why don't the children of Irvington, Orange, East Orange and Newark also "deserve to be educated in a public school setting which provide them to gain 21st century skills and a global exposure" [sic] ???

Hi Marian - i certainly didn't mean to ignore you but your question has been answered by us on several occasions already; we have answered this question to Brian Osborne and Mila Casey in person- in a nutshell, we would have loved to include bordering districts with lower socio-economic status but we were unable to attract a "qualifying founder" from any of these districts. What is a qualifying founder? Someone who lives in the district and has children or someone who teaches in the district, and is willing to commit time and effort to a charter school initiative. One of my offices is located right at the boarder of Maplewood, Union Township and Irvington, and I serve a great number of folks from these towns; despite our efforts and good relationship with many folks from a lower socio-economic town, we were unable to find a qualifying founder who had the time to help out. I hope this will answer your question otherwise please feel free to call me.

As a founder of the Hua Mei, do you support the legislation of having local votes (direct votes by voters or votes by elected representatives) as part of the charter application process, rather than the current process of one-man decision? Explain your reason.

Jutta,

The combined populations of Newark, East Orange, Orange and Irvington, NJ are more than 425,000.

I find it completely preposterous that you could not find one SINGLE person in those 4 districts to agree to be a qualifying founder of your "Boutique" Mandarin-immersion charter school. Especially when you seemed to have NO problem finding qualifying founders listed from outside the proposed region on your application to the DOE from the following towns:

Livingston, Morristown, Madison and Millburn, NJ--along with Bushkill, Penn!

I still have yet to see ms snyder's resume or the proposal. And why wouldn't Newark or Irvington or other low performing districts not being considered... Or they just had no interest?

And so we don't have to rally every six months to stop "Boutique" charter schools like Hua Mei from opening in our communities, please sign this important petition supporting LOCAL control of the charter-school approval process. Thanks everyone for all your support!

http://www.change.org/petitions/new-jersey-communities-want-local-control-over-new-charter-schools-2

Jutta: Your answer above about the funding "allotment" again misrepresents the economics of the issue. Please look up the term "marginal cost." As long as you are answering questions, I'd love to know your answer to this one: Do you believe that if $10k travels with a child to a charter school, that the school district then reduces its costs by $10k? And if so, please itemize the savings. I can't even come up with $1k in savings. The only savings I can think of is a small amount on the district's water bill from somewhat fewer flushes of the toilet.

(big sigh). Jutta, I'm saying it again - the money is NOT allocated to any child. The tax base of the town is fixed; every property owner pays taxes to the school, whether they have children in the schools or not. If a home is sold to a new family, the taxes STAY THE SAME, whether that family sends children to the schools or not. If a child goes to private school, the taxes on their home still go to the public schools. No change. The per student average is just that; it is an average derived from taking the total school budget and dividing by the number of students. This number can fluctuate depending on people moving in and out of the district. It has little bearing on reality. The only time the incoming funds are reduced is if the district has to write a big old check to a charter school. And then there is no cost savings to the district, which screws the remaining kids out of things taxpaying parents want. Why is this so hard for you to understand?

We should apply the same to property taxes. Total budget divided by total number of residences to derive the per household property tax. As with the education budget those not using the system subsidize those that do- so apply it to taxes so that one size property in on part of Maplewood or South Orange doesn't subsidize a property tax in another side or location of a different size..

Its all a way to redistribute wealth on old thinking and formulas.
Seems this is reaching the same end.